I woke up at around 12:30 am Tuesday morning with a concept that I couldn't get out of my head.  I woke up wide awake with the phrase "the biblical proof of salvation".   Proof as in a mathematical proof that proves a theorem.  Now, I don't know if it is appropriate to use the practices of mathematics on everything in the Bible, but truth is truth regardless. I spent 2 hours on this and it started with this idea.

"The law of minimalism" 

Sounds big and important but it basically is a concept of logic that if a set of conditions result in an outcome and a second set of conditions inclusive but greater than the first also result in the same outcome then only the first set is needed to get the outcome.


For use within my thought I wrote this that night.

If a set of conditions are directly stated to result in a fact or action and a second set of conditions, inclusive of the first set but greater is also stated to result in the same fact or action as the firs condition set, then only the lesser of the two condition sets is truly needed to accomplish said fact or action.

Given that I went on and started reading from the beginning of John. I was looking for where it speaks of salvation and how salvation is achieved.  There is some context that I need to keep mindful of here as well.  The crucifixion and such doesn't happen till the end of John but Jesus speaks very directly about Everlasting Life in many passages and how it is obtained.  I would read Everlasting Life as being synonymous with salvation in that context.

I'm not quite ready to write about this yet but its been percolating in my brain for the past week and the more I read and research, the more shortcomings I find with this idea of the law of minimalism.  However I did want to record part of Wednesday night home church here.

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First however for my Aunt Gloria. 

I'm sorry you found offense in what I wrote last time.  It was not meant to be offensive although in retrospect I can see how it is.  In that regard I do apologize and do so publicly.  You are stating to me that we can not both be right in our belief on baptism and what it does or signifies.  If it is true, as I believe, that an individual must believe in Jesus and his redemption of us through the crucifixion and rise to life on the 3^rd day to receive sanctification before God then belief in the Sacrament of Baptism as practiced by the Catholic Church is wrong and has led many astray.  However this is only true if my understanding of the Catholic Church doctrine is true.  I fully acknowledge my own capability for error here. 

To the heart of the underlying issue however.

Do I discount the necessity for baptism?  No, far from it. It is both an act of obedience and of spirit. It is a declaration of allegiance, a partaking of the marriage wine, a celebration of life and a representation of birth among other things.  The spiritual significance of baptism in undeniable and clearly stated several times in various places within the NT.  Acts 10:44-47 however, clearly shows the sanctification of gentiles prior to baptism by evidence of the gift of the Holy Spirit. They did not let that suffice and were baptized immediately but the order of events is clearly demonstrating a reality of belief as the instigation of sanctification.  Also, remember Mark 16:16, where Jesus said you must believe and be baptized but if you do not believe you are condemned.  Even there, belief by the individual is absolutely essential because its lack is the only proof of condemnation, while belief and baptism are both positive proofs of salvation.

That fact, that not believing alone is condemnation, is the guideline that is needed to put the necessities of salvation in proper perspective.

Jesus himself stated this and he is the final authority.

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On to House Church

Wednesday we had the Christmas celebration for my house church.  We had an assignment for the evening as well.  We were all given a number to pray about to see if the Lord would give us a word to give to the person this number represented and give it to that person at house church.  I got #8, Jamie got #15.  Of course Jamie got something for her person right away and I struggled with mine.  I don't role in the "prophetic" much I think. Now Jamie was given a word from Camilla Berrett and I received mine from David Mohr.

I'll have to post a picture of the one Camilla put together, it was beautifully presented and a wonderful message.  Here however I'll record what David wrote for me.

Your are clothed in white.  I see you walking on water with the wind of the Holy Spirit blowing on you and swirling around you.  You are walking confidently, especially, for someone walking on water!  With a peaceful smile on your face, you are walking with a purpose, a destination in mind.

The Lord is increasing your faith!  He is developing the faith you already have within you.  Faith that can walk on water! (Figuratively speaking, perhaps literal ☺)

There is a purpose to your walk!  The Lord is revealing more of your destiny, more of who you are as a son/daughter of the Most High God.  This gives you a confident walk toward the destination ahead.

Thank you much David for your word.

The last two weeks, well less than two weeks, but never-the-less, since my baptism, I have been struggling with a feeling of silence, or absence of God's voice and presence in my life.  The feeling of reciprocation that I have had and found great joy in since I truly committed myself to Christ had dried up.  This left me perplexed, and it left me somewhat adrift.  I continued my reading, continued praying, continued trying to seek Jesus out, yet I felt like I wasn't finding him.

I have talked with several about this feeling and my understanding based on the advice and testimony of their walks is that this kind of thing occurring is not an uncommon thing.  They said that God moved in cycles in this regard, move strongly in you, then give you some time to process.  My father explains it better.  Well, they all have experienced it and I'm somewhat still in the "honeymoon" phase of my walk with Christ.  I pray I never leave that phase, but God's will be done, not mine.

So The first 7 days of this or so went ok.  Things felt somewhat empty but I persevered, read, prayed and sought.  But, I felt empty and after a while I started seeking old pleasures.  As I was doing this I resisted or fell down but yet still turned to God immediately afterward and sought him harder, seemingly to no avail.  Yesterday, I prayed out to him, "I know your here and always here, but I miss you God"  God had withdrawn his presence and I really missed him.  I couldn't seem to find him.

Today, Jamie had to use the car, so I was home alone for several hours during the day.  I felt lonely, somewhat despondent and I knew it was wrong, that it saddened my Jesus but I turned from him and turned to old pleasures.  Jamie, came home in the middle of that struggle I was losing.  She needed a couple of things for her class and wasn't feeling well.  I got stuff ready, brought it out to the car and drove her to her class.

However, I knew if I went home right then I would continue to turn away from Jesus.  I couldn't do it, it wasn't in me to do it.  I HAD to have him back as a tangible presence again.  He is life and I can't live without him.  So instead of going home I went to IHOP.  I went feeling unworthy, feeling lonely and desperate to get Jesus back in immediacy.  I practically ran there feeling like a lost little child who can't find his dad.

I went in, expecting to find a seat somewhere and be miserable or something but once I walked through those doors and into the music and praise and worship and soul crying out of those hundreds for Jesus, I could not be reticent.  I walked right up to in front of the chairs and just cried out "LORD SAVE ME" in my spirit and practically weeping as I sang horribly with crowd.  Even now as I write this, the emotion of it is so high in my throat I could weep even now.

I cried out:

"Where is my salvation Lord, You are my salvations Jesus!"
"Where is my savior Lord, You are my savior Jesus!"
"Where is my help from, Your are my help Jesus!"

I felt the anguish that David must of felt when he wrote his psalm.

I cried out for Jesus and tonight he answered.  I practically danced I felt him around me so strongly.  I'm a big guy and I'm not very expressive with my body in that regard.  I tend to be somewhat reserved in nature there but tonight, I was moving around rather freely.  I sang my heart out and gloried in feeling the tangible presence of Jesus almost like he was right in front of me and we were hugging.  It was TOTALLY AWESOME.  If you've seen the movie "The Incredibles", I'm like the little kid on the tricycle at the end of the movie right now.

Well during that entire extremely wonderful, totally awesome, incredibly overpowering and uplifting and reaffirming experience, one of the singers started singing this line.

"And we will drink the marriage wine in that day"

I don't know what praise song this is from but when he sung it, John's telling of Jesus turning the water to wine was brought to mind and I didn't really realize the significance of it till now.  In fact there is even further significance to that miracle when you look at it more closely.  The HS brought that story to my mind and the message to me at that time from the HS was that the water he turned to wine was the water of baptism which is the wine of celebration for the marriage between Jesus and our spirits.  Here is the story in full.  You'll probably see what I saw very quickly given that message just as I did when I came and read it this evening.

Jn 2:1–12 (ESV) - On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Jesus also was invited to the wedding with his disciples. When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” Now there were six stone water jars there for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons. Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. And he said to them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the feast.” So they took it. When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.” This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him. After this he went down to Capernaum, with his mother and his brothers and his disciples, and they stayed there for a few days.

This miracle surrounds the entire event of a wedding. That is a context of extreme importance.  The time of Jesus's wedding to us had not come here.  His wedding to those who believe in him is his crucifixion and rise from the dead.  We know that this is the "time" that he is referring to because he had already started his ministry.  By the time the wedding occurred he had already been baptized by John and called his first disciples.  The only time that he can then be referring to is his redemption of us sinners.  Combine that with the context of the wedding event and we see that he does not view this as HIS wedding so asks, "what does this have to do with me?" ^{Jn 2:4} This turns the entire event of the wedding at Cana into a representation of the wedding of Jesus to his church, namely us.

Given that foundation, we can very quickly take that parallel down to its conclusion of events.  Mary tells the servants to go and do whatever Jesus commands.  Jesus commanded us to spread the good news, baptize and make disciples of all nations.  The act of baptism is a representation of being reborn into Christ, into purity and righteousness.  The jars that were filled with water were likewise jars reserved for use in purification rites.  That is a clear and plain connection between the baptism and the water use here in the mirical.  The wine is "The Good Wine" that is used in celebration of the wedding.  It is in effect a wine of celebration of the marriage that previously occurred.  So conversely it teaches us that baptism is the water of celebration of our marriage to Christ that previously occurred on the cross and in our belief in Jesus.

Of significance also, this is evidence of the purpose and intention of the act of baptism.  My aunt Gloria has been sharing with me some of the Catholic belief on baptism.  Of how, according to Catholic belief, it is a sacramental act that bestows sanctification upon a person by the intention of the priest who performs the baptism.  So in essence, the act of baptism becomes the actual act of marriage between Jesus and ourselves.  The Catholic church is wrong in this belief and lead many astray due to it.  Thank you Jesus for giving us another representation of YOUR view of baptism.

Thank you lord for your gift to me this night of insight.

I was baptized on November 29th, 2009 around Noon.

My father baptized me with my Mother and Jamie, my wife looking on.

Thank you lord Jesus for your salvation.

Today, I get baptized!

Well, I'm actually writing this on Tuesday, but posting it today. I'm scheduling it for the approximate time I am baptized. So, in extreme excitement, I'm going to do a post about what I have learned about baptism. Some of these things I've spoken of before, but some I have not.

There are three baptisms that I know of. They are the baptisms of

• Christ
• Water
• the Holy Spirit

It's fitting that there are three baptisms. Three is a holy number that is repeated throughout the Bible. The two that are referred to directly in the Bible are the "baptism of water" and "the baptism of the Holy Spirit". This is significant because both of those baptisms are public displays or proclamations of the first baptism, that is "the baptism of Christ". And what is the baptism of Christ? Simply it is the believing in Jesus, that He was the Son of God, that He died to pay the debt of sin and that He rose on the third day to give you everlasting life in Him and the confession of that to others. That is the first baptism that occurs in truth for all believers.

The baptism of Christ is pronounce throughout many parts of the Bible. Some quick references for you would be these.

Jn 3:16–18 (ESV) - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Ro 10:8–11 (ESV) - ...The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."

Mt 10:32–33 (ESV) -"So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."

Now, of course, we can not take the line "with the mouth" too literally here. God is about the heart above all things and it is physically impossible for some to actually speak. The idea here is that they confess their belief publicly. But let's throw a couple of scenarios out here.

What if in the throws of delirium and death, a man comes to believe in Christ, but can not confess his belief? He's dying, delirious, yet he has just believed. Is that man saved? Does that man spend eternity with Christ? He has not confessed before men, he has not made any public demonstration, he hasn't had the opportunity to do so. I contend that God is the God of grace and over and over again he looks to the heart condition of the person. Circumstance can and will interfere with everything that a person is capable of doing, but the heart is true regardless.

I think the truly important thing is this. Do not deny Jesus before men. However, let's take a moment here to remember that God is sovereign. He is the God of Grace and has said that as many times as a man sins against you and turns and asks forgiveness, forgive them. Would he tell us any differently than he does himself? Are we not in Christ and is Christ not in us?

The second and third baptisms don't come in any specific order. Nominally the baptism of the Holy Spirit will happen after the baptism of water. Just as all those that were baptized by the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:1-4 were previously baptized by Jesus or John in water, so usually within the Bible itself does the baptism of the H.S. happen after the baptism of water. There is one major exception that occurs that I have discovered so far. There may be more, but I haven't read them yet.
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Ac 10:44–11:1 (ESV) - "While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days. Now the apostles and the brothers who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God."

Here God baptizes in the Holy Spirit before they are baptized in Water. Why is this significant? Well it shows that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is more than the impartation of power to back up the authority they already have. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is also a public proclamation. Just as we proclaim our belief and changed being to the public via the baptism of Water, God proclaims our belief and changed being to the public via the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

So, we believe Christ, proclaim that belief to the public via the ACTION of baptism in water and God anoints us with the tongue of flame that is the Holy Spirit^{Acts 2:3} as a statement that we are HIS children.

This is also shown in the baptism of Jesus by John.^{Mat 3:13-17} After Jesus is baptized, the Holy Spirit descends upon him like a Dove and God proclaims "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased"^{Mat 3:17} God proclaimed Jesus his child when the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus, so also does he proclaims us his children when the baptism of the Holy Spirit comes upon us. However, Jesus was the Son of God before the proclamation, so also are we children of God before the baptism of the Holy Spirit because we were born in Jesus through the baptism of Christ, through his death and resurrection.

So, as yet I haven't been baptized in the Holy Spirit, well as of this writing, I can't speak for between now and the actual posting on Sunday. But I look forward with great excitement to my Proclamation to the world.

I am a Son of God, because Jesus is my Lord and HE was the First Son of God and payed the debt of death for my sin by dying on the cross, then redeemed my death to life by rising from the dead three days later. And just as he is sat at the right hand of God in heaven, so am I now sat at the right hand of God in heaven, not in the future when this earthly body dies, but right now in the present I am sat there, my name written on the throne in the genealogy of God, a prince of heaven.

Praise be to God!

I'll post the actual baptism video later when I get it.

This is a kind of philosophical discussion based off of some of what I talked about last Sunday in this post and prompted from conversations I had with my Mom & Dad Friday.

We have various enemies that we struggle against, or as Paul instructs, stand against for Christ already has won the victory. These enemies are Sin, the World and the Enemy (Satan and his lesser Fallen Angels). The World is somewhat impersonal, it is just there and we live in it. I have some thoughts; kind of philosophical on that but we will get to them later. Now I’m going to talk about Sin.

Sin is of like kind to Demons. They are both spiritual entities and in rebellion to God. Sin is the rebellion of our dead selves, of our dead flesh that during our life here on earth houses our minds, the battlefield that the flesh and the spirit contend over. Sin, is our former selves and that former self has an identity, it has a personhood amalgamation that has weight and substance here on earth. It may even be a true person but I am not sure. I think it is like a snake skin in some ways. It looks like a person but it is no longer filled with substance, with the actuality of being a person. The true person has been reborn and like the snake that is wiggling out of our dead covering, we Christians are wiggling out of our dead selves with the help of the Holy Spirit.

This sin that resides in our flesh is a spiritual thing. It is of the spirit realm, born of the spirit of death that we were condemned to when Adam ate of the apple. We birthed it into place and grew it into a force as we lived our lives, sinning every day and being in agreement with that sin. That sin nature, that sin person, before we accept Jesus, IS us. We are it and it is us! Oh! How wonderful God is to have given his Son for the redemption of that person. You’re probably going “Huh? That doesn’t make any sense!” Yes it does. Let me explain.

A person is made up of 3 parts: Minds, Body and Spirit. Each IS the other Just as each is separate. God has 3 parts likewise, Mind (God) Body (Jesus) and Spirit (Holy Spirit). They are 3 persons, person-hoods and they are both the same and separate. It is a great mystery. We are as they are also. So before we are saved, before we except Jesus as our savior, our 3 persons that are one, are the Flesh, the Mind and the Spirit of Sin. It is a spirit that is death. And like God, each is separate and the same. So in that state we ARE sin and as such our identity is Sin as much as it is Mind and Flesh.

However a great change occurs when we are saved, a great work is started and will be completed. Through accepting Jesus as our savior, accepting the Gift of salvation and redemption, the integral tie between our Mind and our Spirit of Sin is torn asunder, it is ripped apart just as the curtain between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies in the Temple was ripped apart when Jesus died, the moment Jesus died on the cross. When that occurs, our Mind is not directly connected to that Spirit of Sin anymore, now it is a new creature, a new creation because our Mind is directly connected to the Spirit of Righteousness that is birthed by God through Christ’s redemption. It is a NEW creation a NEW creature.

But our Spirit of Sin does not go away, it still lingers because it is connected to our flesh and our Mind still resides in our Flesh. This means that the Spirit of Sin can influence our Mind via the flesh. However the Spirit of Righteousness directly influences our Mind because it is directly connected. God is the greatest, there is nothing greater and because the Spirit of Righteousness is a child of God, we also are a Child of God. He is our father because of the birth pains of Jesus’ tribulations, death and resurrection.

So as a Christian, one thing we do is work out our salvation in our flesh. We do this via obedience, faith, prayer, taking dominion and deliverance to name a few of those things we understand. The Flesh is of the world and Sin our former self still has a legitimate tie to that flesh. We are working out our salvation because God through his grace to us has started it, has made us new but we, as yet, do not have our holy body, our redeemed body that is the Body of like kind to Jesus’ resurrected body. It is Sin’s body that we must take dominion over because for the moment, we live in it.

What does this mean for us though as Christians? It means that Sin is truly a foreign intruder into our mind. It has no RIGHTS to our mind at all and as such we have full authority over it through the authority of Jesus Christ over all creation. Sin is a created thing, corrupted but created. Jesus has authority and dominion over all creation.

So, why do Christians still cling to sin? Why do they think it IS their nature? It is NOT! It is a LIE! Sin is not you who are redeemed, it is the enemy and it is the first enemy Christ defeated. You have the victory already because Christ has the Victory.

Praise God who has torn asunder our self, the very being of worldly Flesh, Mind and Spirit of Sin. Thank you Lord, who started a good work in me by making me a new creation of worldly Flesh, Mind and Spirit of Righteousness and of Christ. What God has started he will see to completion. Thank you Jesus for the redemption and the promise of a Body of Perfection, holy and of you.

Mom, Dad

You will be a Mother and Father to many.  Your children have not yet come to you.  The heart of the father and mother reside in you and is waiting to be expressed beyond the bounds of your physical children.  Pray for the Holy Spirit to blow his wind and cast the quail at your feet like he did for the Israelites in the wilderness.

It is time to stop seeking something to join.  It is time now to pray and make yourself ready to receive.  God has a family set aside for you, make yourselves ready, its on the way even now.

This is the word that I have been given this morning for you.

I have been convicted to start tithing as you have all read in previous posts.  Jamie and I have decided to start tithing as of the 1st of the year.  This would mean that our first tithe would actually occur on the 15th, unless we decided to use the one on Dec 31st to begin.

I have continued to be conflicted in who to tithe to.  I do not feel it is right to tithe to a church based on the standard organized church definition of tithing.  I believe that the tithe as preached there is an admonishment to sin rather than to live righteously because it puts the gaining of money for the use of "the church" above the direction of God's money for use as he sees fit.  It basically places "the church" in place of Jesus who is the true receiver of our tithes.

However, I came across a passage that threw my conclusions from before as to the "who" that we tithe on their head.  This came shortly after I learned of the expectation of the "church" that God led me to (of this I have no doubt that God led me to them) that we are to tithe.  I have a feeling I will have to chide myself publicly again and again as I learn more about Christ and how to live by the word of the Holy Spirit.

Here is the passage that threw my conclusions into disarray.

1 Co 9:4–14 (ESV) - Do we not have the right to eat and drink? Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living? Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating any of its fruit? Or who tends a flock without getting some of the milk? Do I say these things on human authority? Does not the Law say the same? For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Does he not speak entirely for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more? Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

This seems to indicate an expectation in the first church to give to those who were apostles, preachers, teachers (not a limiting list) to give materially to those who have give spiritually.  So this seems at direct odds to what I concluded previously.  So which is right?  Which is wrong?  Or, am I both right and wrong.

This led me to a chase for other interpretations and examinations on the practicing of tithing.  And I ran across this pdf.

I read that document and it made sense to me.  I can't find any fault with it in my heart, mind or spirit as yet.  Now, I still have some questions for my church to make sure that their expectation in the tithe is sound and of the right spirit, but now, I have no internal question as to the appropriateness to tithe to my God led to church.  If their reasoning is unsound for how they use the tithe or why they expect it, well, maybe I can be a teacher.

Read Romans 1:1-6:23

Jesus saved us through a gift of grace performed in his death on the cross and rise from the dead. By accepting that gift through faith, through belief, we are justified to God and are no longer held to the ultimate wages of our sin, death.^{(Ro 5:1, Ro 6:23)}  There is a belief that I am aware of and run into directly that as a christian, because we are now children of God, it is impossible for us to be "possessed" of unclean spirits.  I put possessed in quotes there as I do not necessarily mean "The Exorcist" variety of possession but more specifically the indwelling of spirits which will influence us and have dominion over us in areas of our lives.  They are the jail keepers to prisons of our sin.

Yes, my experience is directly at odds with this belief.  Unclean spirits indwelt me even after I became a Christian and my heart, desire and spirit was changed forever.  I may still have unclean spirits residing in me that I need to purge.  Admittedly they are probably not very comfortable right now but that doesn't mean they aren't there.  So what is the truth?

I have been keeping my eye out for some kind of speaking on this matter in my reading, yet I haven't been seeking it per-se.  Well I got to Romans this morning and I ran into these passages towards the end of my reading.

Ro 6:12–19 (ESV) -Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

This passage here, what does it tell us.  First of all, it is speaking on the human level, the natural level or worldly level.  This means your day to day lives and where you live right now.  Remember we are IN the world but not OF the world.   It limits the infection of sin to your mortal body!  This is important.

There is a distinct difference in us between our body our mind and our spirit.  Our bodies will eventually perish and we will have new bodies.  That's somewhere in Revelation, don't know where exactly but I remember its there.  I'll get to that book.  Our spirit has been sanctified and reborn to new life in Jesus.  We (our spirits) are new creations.  Our heart and desires that live in our mind are new wine skins that hold the new wine of the Holy Spirit. 

But what of our bodies?  They don't change, they are not sanctified.  They are still imperfect and doomed to death.  And here in Romans 6:16 we see that you can still live and ACT in obedience to sin and thus be slaves to it.  Well, the doorway and housing for unclean spirits, for demons, IS SIN.  I think this is why sin is talked about in very similar terms to the way in which Satan (an unclean spirit) or the enemy or demons are talked about.

Ge 4:7 (ESV) - If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”
1 Pe 5:8 (ESV) - Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Mal 3:11 (ESV) - I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of your soil, and your vine in the field shall not fail to bear, says the LORD of hosts.

So sin creates a doorway into you mortal bodies by which a demon can grab hold and grab dominion and authority over your mortal body.  Now, your body and your mind is connected.  your body houses your mind.  So if there are members of your body, rooms and areas of it that are dwelt in by your enemies, They have access to influence and attack your mind.  Does this mean schizophrenia or something psychologically weird or something?  No of course not, its much simpler.  Desires, suggestions, prodding towards sin and greater imprisonment of your body and affliction of you mind.

 So, in one sense, A christian can never become possessed by an unclean spirit, that is his own spirit and sanctified soul can never be harmed by that spirit directly or have its justification be ruined by that spirit.  Yet in the other sense, the mortal bodies by which we go about in this worldly realm are pathways to our daily lives being ruled by sin and hence ruled by the enemy. 

But, we have the tools to fight the enemy and we have abundant grace to overcome the enemy through the name of Jesus Christ.  As children of God we inherit his authority and when we call on Jesus, he is there in us right then and truthfully always, being the master and triumphant victor of the battlefield.

So Paul exhorts us to take hold and fight for the sanctification of our bodies and mind because they ARE a battlefield that Jesus has won, but if we don't enforce that victory, if we allow the enemy to run rampant through our own willingness, than what good is that victory to us in our daily lives?  How does that glorify God?  It does not.  It doesn't remove glory but it most certainly does not add glory to God.  So do as Paul instructs.

Ro 6:19 (ESV) - For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

Read: Acts

Well at least I finished Acts.  I actually read it over the last 3 days I think. I didn't really get much out of acts that was profound or anything.  Some things I've already shared because I read sections out of order as they had to do with other things I was investigating and researching.  Tithes for example cover some sections.  Acts seems to be broken up into 3 sections.

The first section, Acts 1:1-7:60,  is the Ascension and the church directly following the ascension.  This part is basically a testament to the presence of the Holy Spirit, the fulfillment of the coming of the "Helper".  It ends with the stoning of Stephen which marks the start of the persecution and diaspora of the first church.

There are two more parts to Acts but they are mixed together to some degree.  One part follows Peter and the second part follows Paul.  When I think of this, it makes me think of the parable of the prodigal son.  I kind of see Peter as the son who stayed with the father and Paul as the son who ran off and committed sin.  However, Paul is also a testament to the grace and love that God has for us.  He was the worst of the worst at that time. Killing, imprisoning and inciting riots and persecution against followers of Jesus and yet, God used him to become arguably the greatest of the apostles.

Paul's story is very much an epic story in itself, and there is some pretty good humor involved if you think about it as well.  For several pages, his story was one of running too and fro, one step ahead of persecution and the persecuters following him and chasing him.  It reminded me of when I was a kid and watching Scooby Doo chase scenes where they would pull all kinds of tricks and such and hilarity would ensue.

I don't really have much to say about Acts. Not yet at least.

Its been a pretty powerful week for me, well two weeks actually. Stan and I have been getting together and praying and fellowshiping. Jamie and I had "desert" with Stan and Dana on Tuesday and went to a thing at IHOP's FSM last night.  It was full of worship, prayer, healing and deliverance.  Sunday, tomorrow we are going to go to Rock Tribe and probably going to join one of their home church's. All in all, I must say there is more joy and happiness in my life then I have ever felt.

I kind of wanted to write some more today, but I don't have anything so I'll leave you with that.

Read: John 12:1 - 21:25

I finished John today. It's the last of the gospels. Acts is next. However something intrigued me and gave me a thought. Bear with me as I attempt to work it out.

Jn 20:21–23 (ESV) -Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Jesus is speaking to the disciples here after his resurrection and before his ascension. This is the first appearance to the disciples of 3; he appeared to Mary Magdalene before that. This passage confuses me. It seems to imply that we have been given the same authority to forgive and not forgive sins as Jesus was. It doesn't seem right, yet Jesus said it, so it is one of 3 things. Either Jesus was lying; I don't understand what he's saying, or it literally means what it says that we have the authority to forgive and not forgive sins.

Well, I absolutely discount the "he is lying" theory because if he's lying about this, then he is lying about everything. Its an all or nothing equation with Jesus, we can't cherry pick those things we like to hear and those we do not.

However, what if it is both my lack of understanding and his literally saying that we have the authority to forgive and not forgive sins? This is a dangerous statement of Jesus for us. It throws great responsibility on us. However, let's not examine this in seclusion, but rather in the whole body of what Jesus said.

First, is he speaking literally or figuratively? We know that Jesus often spoke in parables and in figures of speech with comparisons to light and darkness, vines, trees, seeds, water etc... These patterns are littered throughout the New Testament. Yet, shortly before his betrayal he says this.


Jn 16:25–27 (ESV) -“I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father. In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

This is after the Lord's Prayer and before Jesus prays to God for his disciples in the upper room. Judas Iscariot has already left to do his deed by this time as well and so this plain speech was hidden from him. After this, at least in the gospel of John, there are no more parables, there are no more turns of phases. It is plain, direct and clear what he says. So when Jesus says we have authority to forgive and withhold forgiveness, he must be speaking literally.

Yet, Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Light and no one comes to God but by him. How does that hold up to this authority? Well, later in John, Jesus prays this.

Jn 17:14–23 (ESV) -I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

So, clearly speaking here Jesus, God and we his followers are now one, each in the other. Just as our names are written in heaven^{(Lk 10:29)} so is his name written on us, as in his spirit, his ownership and his seal is upon us his followers. However I don't think this ends here. If our authority to forgive sins is derived from Jesus, in whom God has granted all authority, it is not OUR authority at all, but rather Jesus in us. As such everything else Jesus has said is also true.

Jn 12:44–50 (ESV) -And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”

Our authority is given by Jesus who received his authority from God the Father, from Abba and Jesus only spoke what was given him to speak, so must we only speak what we are given to speak. So if our flesh rises up and speaks falsehood, is the flesh housed with authority? I don't think it is. Our flesh will die away eventually, it is not eternal, but our spirit, our soul is eternal and IT is invested with authority. It is what is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and through it are we one with Jesus and Jesus one with us.

So, Jesus' will is to give eternal life for that is the commandment given by God. So also is our will. We do not act upon our own accord when we act rightly, we act in accord with God. Yet when we do not act in accord with God, when we act in the flesh, when we sin and are not perfect, when we withhold forgiveness, what then... I'm still confused about this.

So, no conclusions yet, but a big giant question mark.

Hmm, what if he is talking about our own personal forgiving of sins committed against us? Just as he could forgive those that sinned against him, maybe we are also empowered to forgive sins against us. And Jesus chose to forgive every time it was asked of him....

This requires more thought.

Read: John 2:1 - 5:47

I haven't done a Quiet Time post in a while and I got something pretty significant out of today's that I thought I should share. However, let me first start out with an experience, a wonderful experience that I had Friday that I do not want to lose the memory of.

I have been seeking people to be in fellowship with, not for the purpose of being in fellowship, for only Jesus is the one to truly be in fellowship with, but rather so that I can more perfectly follow Jesus. God has directed us as Christians to be accountable to each other^{(Eph 5:21)} and to be as "iron to iron" where we sharpen our faith,^{(Pr 27:17)} our knowledge and build each other up by the testament of other Christians^{(Eph 4:11-12)}. So I have been seeking "fellow iron".

Well I opened several doors, or knocked at least and they were shut on me, or not recognized as a knock. This is not to say that those who didn't recognize were at fault or anything but, this was not God's will. If it had been, then God would of removed every obstacle and made the path clear. But he didn't. And during all of this seeking, I ignored, or didn't even think of the person that has been present in my life for 3 years.

Well, earlier last week--I think it was Wednesday--I had the door shut on me, kindly and appropriately by another one I knocked on and I talked with God. To paraphrase:

You (God) have been shutting these doors on me and I am not seeking these people through you. I desire to have someone or group or something to fellowship with, not because I desire the group, it is you I desire, but how can I be sure, how can I be accountable and how can I be steady without those to walk with? I'm seeking in the wrong places, you are showing this to me by shutting the doors. What do I do? Where do I go? Who do I talk to?

And immediately what came to my mind was the name of Stan. I have been working with Stan for 3 years now I think and I have always felt in him the same thing I felt in my parents and in my older brother and his wife. That effervescent sense of life! Its something I can't explain, but something I recognize when I'm in the presence of it. I have only felt that in a few people. To me it is a sure indication, a confirmation in my spirit that these people are Christians in truth and not in culture.

However, I have been ignoring, or not even thinking of Stan in all of this seeking. My mom had suggested him several times, but I dismissed it out of hand. I don't know what was going through my head, but it wasn't God. So anyway, when Stan came to mind, I thought I'll call him. But I second guessed myself, I hemmed and hawed and resisted. I didn't want to interrupt him and didn't know what to say and I thew a myriad of reasons not to call him. So I didn't call him. But the thought wouldn't go away. I needed to talk to him. I needed to contact him right then in that moment because if I didn't then I would be denying what God had directed me to do.

I can't deny what God directs me to do. I must do it. You must act in that moment that God gives you the direction to do it right then. He doesn't always do that; he doesn't always direct that you act right then, but when he does, you better do it. Faith requires action and if God has directed immediately, then having that faith in him requires that you ACT immediately on that faith. Don't get me wrong, this is not a duty, this is an act of adoration of worship! I'll explain what I mean later by that.

Regardless, God directed me to contact Stan immediately. And I couldn't call him, I threw up to many roadblocks. So I decided to IM him. I love IM. Its such a wonderful communication tool. Allows us to contact and talk without being intrusive to the work day. So, I IM'd him and the response was immediately different from every single seeking that I initiated separately from the asking of God. Oh, what a lesson there! Every endeavor I initiated failed, the door was shut or not opened. But the single one that God gave me after asking succeeded immediately and beyond my wildest imagination. Praise God!

We did some logistics and it was decided between us that we would start out with a lunch on Friday. I have been sequestered down at a client location in southern Overland Park for the last month and the project was ending Thursday, so the timing worked out perfectly. And Stan is pretty busy too. He is taking care of his family, working, and doing a lot of stuff with his fellowship.

Well, we had lunch, and it was a blast. It went by so fast that I hardly remember it all. He invited Jamie & I to go to a city-wide prayer meeting that evening. I was all for it, but I couldn't out of hand commit Jamie to it. When we get back to the office I talked with Jamie and she didn't feel up to it but gave me the ok to go. So I took the rest of the afternoon to be home with her and then went to Stan's place to go to the prayer meeting that evening.

We got there; I was watching their little one. (Which is so unlike me, I am always unwilling to watch them and hold them and such, but that was the old me). I met a guy by the name of Paul. He reminded me of Christopher Rinkleff. Same build, same facial structure but soft spoken. I had to get my head straight because he is not Chris so I did not want to hold Paul to the preconceived impressions I have of Chris. We talked for 40 minutes or so. I'm just having a hay day holding and bouncing Stan's little one around and talking to Paul. I got introduced to a couple of others but its Paul I'm talking to mostly. Seemed like a one sided conversation--I don't think I shut up.

Well, the meeting started with praise, singing and dancing and some people on their knees, some on there faces praying. I'm not uncomfortable, but I'm looking at this and I keep looking or glancing over at these people who are dancing and praying so fervently during worship and I feel a bit of contempt, I feel self righteous and think to myself what are they doing? And then it dawns on me, how am I different in that thought than the pharisees and scribes who looked at Jesus and saw with contempt and self righteousness the work of God? Who am I to look at this and pass judgment? I am wrong!

So right there I started praying, I prayed out load and I don't remember all that I prayed, but I prayed against myself, I prayed to be broken of the spirit of condescension, of contempt, of self righteousness. I prayed that the word "No" would be removed from my vocabulary when it comes to Jesus and that all I would ever say is "Yes". I declare that "No" is barred from me and "Yes" is my answer in everything, I asked for forgiveness, I renounceed those thoughts and I cast out any spirit or enemy that would inject those thoughts into me. I prayed for a good while I think, I don't know how long. The entire night was like 4 hours but it passed in a heartbeat.

So the worship changed from singing to prayer. The leaders spoke a little bit and people would bring up a verse or a song or something and pray it and I sat down to look for something. I started to just look and browse through the bible, but it again dawned on me. Why am I seeking to bring a verse out of my human desire for inclusion or participation? Is God putting a verse in me? Is God directing me to do something? No he isn't, so stop looking and just receive. Soon after a woman got up and prayed a simple song, it was poignant and powerful and moved me to tears and I felt connected to these people and connected more importantly to the Holy Spirit.

There was some instruction after that and I'll share a diagram that was passed around. This is my own version of the diagram as I don't have a scanner. It starts from the center with ABBA, with Father God and the Heart of a Father being the core of a movement back to Christ, faith and worship in spirit and in truth.

I won't go into it totally and some of it I don't understand, especially as it goes further out in the circles. But, I don't need to understand it, it is not my purpose to prove or disprove it. If it is of God then by following Jesus and following the leading of the Holy Spirit then God's will and desire will be done regardless of the accuracy or inaccuracy of any diagram.

And throughout all of this night, I heard teaching and principle and prayer and humility that confirmed all that I had learned in reading what little I have read of the Bible. I have only ready a little bit for myself. Genesis, Exodus, Mathew, Mark & Luke. A smattering of Romans and Hebrews and Ephesians. The rest I will get to eventually. As you can see at the top of the page, I'm into John now.

I felt at home there, at peace and belonging. These are people filled with the spirit and filled with passion and in the past, I have run from these people, I have avoided them or felt fearful of them. They were like a strong spice that is just too much to be palatable. But now, it felt like home. So, I will walk with them until God leads me otherwise.

I told Stan during this.

He smiled real big at me and nodded. So be prepared Mom & Dad, I may not be able to give you much notice on when this happens, but my waiting is over, I'm seeking it now actively.

There are 3 parts to being a Christian, but only one is necessary. However, the one that is necessary is confirmed to those on earth through Baptism of Water and Baptism of the Holy Spirit. These baptisms are not meant to show that you are a Christian and believe in Jesus to God! God knows your heart and the minute, the very second, the very moment you believe you are saved! These baptisms are to show to the world that you are a Christian. There is your act of faith, the Baptism of Water. Then there is God's proclamation that you are his, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:44-47 shows that God does proclaim people as his even without the Baptism of Water. Yet they still followed up in faith by being baptized in water. Acts 8:17 shows as well that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit can and does come after the Baptism of water.

I have been seeking the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but I have been wrong in this. God's gift of baptism is something you do not seek as if you could buy it. Not that I was seeking to buy it, but is the heart that seeks to buy it any different than the heart that seeks it for its the sake of the gift alone? I can not claim that I sought the baptism of the Holy Spirit for the sake of Jesus. So as yet, because I have sought the Baptism of the Holy Spirit out of a wrong heart, it has been denied. So God, I have asked for forgiveness for this and I have renounced the seeking of it. If and when you choose to proclaim me as yours then let it be received with a clean heart and a right motive.

However, the Baptism of Water is an act of faith and that I choose to do. I will proclaim that I am his regardless of his proclamation that I am his.

---

I should probably get to what I actually wanted to show and record that I learned today. I have this thought in my head that I should split this into two posts and hold one off till tomorrow, but I'm not writing this for anyone but me, so I'll do it all in this single post.

Jn 4:23–24 (ESV) - "But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

When people think of worship, they think of singing, praising, hymns and psalms and doing something verbal. Others also add to that dancing and praying and other things. I do not mean to disregard those things as worship, but I do not believe that this was the worship that Jesus is referring to. Spirit and in Truth. All these things that are called worship are born of the flesh. They are our expressions that we in our flesh do to honor God, to worship him. This is not to say that they are wrong, or that they are vanity. They could be, but they are not necessarily so.

Jesus said Mt 6:5 (ESV) -“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward."

This public prayer, and also public worship and praise is not necessarily real. It is not by definition vanity but it could be. What he is talking about is the heart. The heart worshiping God does not care about whether people are seeing the worship or the prayer. The heart that is worshiping God will do it in private where it can not be heard or seen because it is FOR GOD that they do it. ^{(Mt 6:6)}

How does this relate to worshiping in spirit and truth?

Jn 3:5–6 (ESV) -Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

The spirit can not be seen, it can only be felt and heard ^{(Jn 3:8)} Thus when you worship in spirit it can not be seen, it can only be felt and heard. But what is worshiping in spirit? How do we know if someone is worshiping in Spirit? By their fruits!

Ga 5:22–23 (ESV) -But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

These things are like seeing the leaves on a tree blow, you know the wind is there because you feel it and see its effects, but you can not see the wind itself. So what is "in truth". Sincerity, truth, to me it is pretty self explanatory. If you are really worshiping you are doing it for real, in truth, rather than for acclaim and reward here on earth, or in heaven. You are worshiping because you truly love and worship God & Jesus.

So how does worshiping in spirit and truth play out? Faith! and acts based on faith. Do as God directs you without regard to perception or outcome. Do it in private and do it in public without regard to location. It is for God you do it and if someone should witness it, God will use your acts of faith for his kingdom. And if no one should witness it, well no matter, it is for God and to God you do it.

Caution however, be sure of your heart and your motive for your public worship, be centered and focused on God, on Jesus and following the leading of the Holy Spirit. Because if you aren't... “Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward." ^{(Mt 6:5)}

I made a note the other day when reading through Luke 16 during morning quite time about a set of verses that seemed at the time self-contradictory.  I'm not sure what I was thinking then but I decided to note it down and move on for the time being.  Here are the verses.

So, using some software (Logos Bible Software 4) to do some comparison and find the same teaching in the other gospels.  I found these passages.

In the Old Testament you tithed to God, but the person or group to which you tithed was a representative of God. This is true in all cases but Jacob and Noah.

Abraham tithed to priest of God Most High and the Jews as a nation tithed to the priestly orders within the tribe of Levi. Jacob gave a tenth back to God directly and Noah did as well in his burnt offering of a portion of the animals on the ark. Now I believe that the New Testament does tell us we should tithe, but the physical entity is no longer present on this earth. We cannot tithe to Jesus directly as he is in heaven and although we have an Organized Church, that Organized Church is also not the given receiver of our tithing. The only one who IS a given receiver is Jesus himself. Just as Abram tithed to Melchizedek, so are we to tithe to Jesus.

My father gave me several places to look in the New Testament as to whom we tithe to but I find that those places do not give us a “whom” to which to tithe. Let’s take a look at them.

Mark 12:41-44 (ESV) - And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums. And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny. And he called his disciples to him and said to them, “Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box. For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.”


Now this passage I believe is about the heart of tithing, the widow has given out in faith, she has given out with a heart of thankfulness and her offering because it was not only great because of the cost it was to her, but more importantly because of the heart behind the gift.  If she had given out of our poverty in search of a reward, I do not think Jesus would have said what he said.

Acts 4:32-35 (ESV) - Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need.

There was no tithe within the body of Christ immediately following the ascension of Jesus into Heaven for the church was not divided by distance, nor was it divided in heart and soul as it is today.  But the church today IS divided in heart and soul and we no longer have apostles chosen by Jesus while Jesus was on the earth living among us.  That is not to say that we do not have apostles living today, for as Paul was chosen to be an apostle by Jesus himself after his ascension, we cannot limit or wall in Jesus' choice of additional apostles throughout the centuries.

Acts 11:27-30 (ESV) - Now in these days prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. And one of them named Agabus stood up and foretold by the Spirit that there would be a great famine over all the world (this took place in the days of Claudius). So the disciples determined, everyone according to his ability, to send relief to the brothers living in Judea. And they did so, sending it to the elders by the hand of Barnabas and Saul.

Here we have a prophetic word of a famine to come and it was determined that God desired an offering to go in relief to Judea.  Is this a tithe?  It could be, yet it is also directed by God via a prophetic message.


I think the following passages are in direct relation to the prophetic word that is mentioned in Acts.  I think at this time, the famine in Judea is happening and this is the continuation of the offering to support Christians in Judea.  Please correct me if I'm wrong in the time line, though I do not think I am wrong in the circumstance.



2 Corinthians 8:1-5 (ESV) - We want you to know, brothers, about the grace of God that has been given among the churches of Macedonia, for in a severe test of affliction, their abundance of joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a wealth of generosity on their part. For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own accord, begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints— and this, not as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then by the will of God to us.

2 Corinthians 8:8-14 (ESV) - I say this not as a command, but to prove by the earnestness of others that your love also is genuine. For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich. And in this matter I give my judgment: this benefits you, who a year ago started not only to do this work but also to desire to do it. So now finish doing it as well, so that your readiness in desiring it may be matched by your completing it out of what you have. For if the readiness is there, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have. For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness.

 2 Corinthians 8:19 (ESV) - And not only that, but he has been appointed by the churches to travel with us as we carry out this act of grace that is being ministered by us, for the glory of the Lord himself and to show our good will.

2 Corinthians 9:6-9 (ESV) - The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. As it is written, “He has distributed freely, he has given to the poor; his righteousness endures forever.”
 

2 Corinthians 9:13-15 (ESV) - By their approval of this service, they will glorify God because of your submission flowing from your confession of the gospel of Christ, and the generosity of your contribution for them and for all others, while they long for you and pray for you, because of the surpassing grace of God upon you. Thanks be to God for his inexpressible gift!

2 Corinthians is a treasure in the spirit of giving.


And yet throughout these passages we see no ordered tithing to the Church (there isn't an organized one to give to) nor any admonishments that you have to give but rather we see that God desires the gift, the tithe out of a heart of giving, out of an inborn desire inspired by God himself and directed by God himself.  This makes sense as well.  Consider Matthew.

Matthew 25:34-45 (ESV) - Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’


Has not Jesus himself told us to whom we should entrust our tithe?  To those with need! But it's not just those with need, it is those with need as directed by God himself.  So, I must ask, in usurping the role of Jesus himself as the receiver of the tithe, does the Church lift itself up as a false idol, even if unknowingly?  

Christians do not have a priesthood for our priest is Jesus alone, he is the priest of God Most High eternally.  Does the Church, by stepping in and taking on the role of a priesthood, encouraging the giving of tithes to that priesthood and using that tithe for the funding of the church in addition to the helping of the "brothers" set itself up in place of Jesus.  Why have modern Christians created a "Law" in reflection of Mosaic Law when Jesus has already fulfilled that Law.  Why do modern Christians place themselves, voluntarily underneath a Law that Jesus himself has raised us above by writing our names in Heaven?



Something to think about at least.  


Now, I'm not sure that this means that tithing to your church is wrong necessarily. Jesus is greater than everything, so if he directs someone to tithe to the church, it is Gods will and therefor the right and holy thing to do.  However, if someone just accepts the teaching and direction of the church to tithe to it, is that really God's will, or has, however unintentional, the church directed you to sin.  Also I must consider, if you never seek God's will in tithing, do you not yourself sin against God, do you not rebel against him in someway for YOU have chosen the direction of HIS portion rather than him directing his portion as he sees fit.


Grace however must rule it all, for God desires mercy above justice.  If I mishear the choice of God for my tithe, I must remember that God directs all things for the glory of God.

I must admit first and foremost that I do not tithe as yet.  I have not tithed in the past more than the change in my pocket to not feel out of place.  That being the case I can reliably say, I have never tithed in my life.  Yet... at the same time, the tithe is present throughout the Old Testament and within the New Testament as well.  My wife and I plan to start tithing the first of the year, but as that time approaches, I find that I want to be sure of why I tithe and to whom I do tithe, not just spiritually, but physically as well.  Given the lack of belief I have found within the organized church for the spiritual reality, I was not sure that tithing to my church was right to do.

So I’ve been scouring the Old and New Testament using search phrases and key words at ESV.org to find passages and versus that relate to tithing and relate to giving an offering back to God.  I even called my parents who walked me through the second part of my question somewhat, and here I’ll take what they gave me and see how it plays out in my own understanding and what the Holy Spirit may dine to give me.

My quest started out in places that I’ve already read.  I haven’t read the entire bible yet and really can only speak with any kind of real knowledge on those areas that I have read.  But, I remember the first tithe, or so I thought was the first tithe.

Genesis 14:18-20 - And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. (He was priest of God Most High) and he blessed him (Abram) and said,
       “Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth;
        And blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand!”
 And Abram gave him (Melchizedek) a tenth of everything.

This was before the Law of Moses.  The second tithe was the tithe of Jacob.

Genesis 28:20-22 – Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat and clothing to wear, so that I come again to my father’s house in peace, then the Lord shall be my God, and this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, shall be God’s house. And of all that you give me I will give a full tenth to you.

This is the foundation of tithing in the Old Testament.  Jacob set the relationship and it was confirmed by God in the Law of Moses found elsewhere in Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.  I haven’t got to all of those books yet but a search finds multiple references to tithing within the Old Testament.

This got me thinking, was the first tithe really Abram to Melchizedek?  That tithe was before the Law given to Moses, which was a tithe not out of duty, but out of thankfulness.  I scoured back through Genesis looking.

Genesis 8:20-22 – Then Noah built an alter to the Lord and took some of every clean animal and some of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.  And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is even from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done. While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease.”

This was not a sacrificial offering for blood atonement; this was a giving of a portion of all in Noah’s possession to the Lord in thankfulness for what the Lord had done for him!  It’s not like Noah had money after the flood, his value his coin was what was in the Ark.  Noah was the first to tithe… wasn’t he?

Genesis 4:3-5 – In the course of time Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground, and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions.  And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell.

There is something different here then there is with Noah and with the tithing as prescribed in the Law of Moses.  Tithing in the Law held the produce of the fields to be a good offering; it was only with the offering for atonement that the firstborn animal was required.  God had no regard for Cain’s offering, thus this was an offering for atonement.  The story of Noah made no distinction, made no reference to the first born of every animal or the firstborn of the sheep or lamb or oxen.  It merely said “some of every clean animal and some of every bird”.  So, at least within the Old Testament accounting, Noah was the first to tithe.

The act of tithing is well documented and prescribed within the Old Testament, but Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law, he was the one who was greater than the Law and in him so are we greater than the Law.  So, as Christians, are we really supposed to be tithing?  The New Testament is eerily silent on this subject, except for one rather important piece.

Hebrews 7:1-28- link

I would quote the entire chapter here if it wouldn’t be so lengthy but it comes down to this.  Jesus is of the priestly order of Melchizedek, that is, he is priest of God Most High and priest because of “the power of an indestructible life”

So we have this:

• Tithing occurred before Abraham with Noah out of a heart of thankfulness.
• Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, priest of God Most High out of a heart of thankfulness.
• Jacob made a vow with God to give a tenth and set up the foundation of the Law of Tithing.
• God, through the Law of Moses solidified that vow with holy commandments.
• The Kings of Israel also took a tenth as a tithe for provisioning the government.
• Jesus came and fulfilled the Law of Moses and the older debt of sin at the same time.
• Jesus is priest of God Most High as was Melchizedek.
• Jesus was of the order of Melchizedek.
• And Abraham tithed to Melchizedek out of a heart of thankfulness
• Jesus was God in Flesh
• And Noah tithed a burnt offering to God out of a heart of thankfulness.

So tithing while being prescribed in the Law of Moses is before the Law of Moses as Jesus, being the fulfillment of the Law of Moses is THE priest of God Most High of a priestly order that is older than the Law of Moses.

A follower of Christ should desire to tithe out of a heart of thankfulness!  It is an inborn response to the love of Jesus himself.

Now, I got this all when I called my parents, or not really got it all but it solidified in my mind as I was speaking to my father. But this only answers the first part of my question.

To tithe or not to tithe…

I choose to tithe.  Now, whom do I tithe to?

Well, Dad gave me some advice, direction and verses and passages to look into, but I haven’t done that yet.  I trust my Father, he is wise and in touch with God, but… I haven’t looked yet for myself.  So, I guess you’ll find out after I do.

Read: Luke 9&10

Through out my experience in the church, doing the Lord's work has been the focus of being a good Christian, of being close to God.  If you where out spreading the gospel (which I didn't really do), if you were out feeding the hungry, ministering to those in need, praying with those who wanted prayer.  Those all were signs that you where a "Good Christian"

My Mom put me onto a web site. The School of Christ run by Chip Brogden. I have read some of his open letters and I have listened to one of his webinars, the first one on Ephesians.  It is a wonderful lesson and I would recommend it to anyone.  Well, in exploring his site yesterday I ran accross this open letter.

Is Jesus enough?

Take a moment and go read it.
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Done? No? Go finish it.
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Done now?  Cool, I'll continue.

I started reading that last night but didn't finish it.  I read it again, the entire thing this morning.  And when I opened up my bible to do my quite time I read through this passage in Luke.

Luke 10:38-42 - Now as they went on their way, Jesus entered a village. And a woman named Martha welcomed him into her house.  And she had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord's feet and listened to his teaching.  But Martha was distracted with much serving.  And she went up to him and said, "Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to serve alone?  Tell her then to help me." But the Lord answered her, "Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things, but one thing is necessary.  Mary has chosen the good portion, which will not be taken away from her."

And I read that and I knew, it is not our works for him that he desires most from us, it is our desire for him that he desires.  It is us sitting at his feet and listening to him.  Now, don't get me wrong, does this negate our commission to go out and  perfect our faith through works?  No!  far be it.  Its a matter of perspective.  If our works and position within the body of Christ is greater than Christ himself, we have lost focus of the fact that there is NOTHING greater than Christ.  Our first love, our first desire is to be with Christ.  And when he chooses to send us out to do his work, it is then a continuation of being with him.  When we go out and do his work for the sake of that work, it is an act of drawing away from him.

Something else that came across my conscience while reading today.  Something that I think I need to announce some culpability in.  When I had my conversation with the nice man, I became offended when he said that those who focus on the devils (I think that word is used to dismiss the reality of the enemy) start to see them around every corner.  Well, I was greatly offended by that, but regardless of the naivette this man showed, he was right in something and I need to own up to that.

Luke 10:29 - Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.

Yes we have authority and power of evil spirits, Yes we have signs that will accompany us, Yes we are, or are becoming powerful warriors for Heaven, but this is not things to rejoice over, these are not things that should be glorified or thought of as great.  The things to rejoice over, the things to be glorified and thought of as Great is that our names are written in heaven...

no, not our names,

that is imagery that is easily lost today.  That would make us think in todays age that there is a little roll call book sitting in heaven with our name in it. And its much more powerful and potent and real than that.

When we call on the name of Jesus, we are calling on JESUS himself.  His name and he are synonymous. 

So when Jesus says that our name is written in heaven, he is saying to US that we are in heaven with him, sitting at his feat and glorifying, ministering to, and being ministered by God and Heaven and most importantly Jesus.  Even now as we live here on this earth, we are ALSO in heaven now, our soul is redeemed and there even NOW. 

Seems impossible doesn't it.  Well we call on the name of Jesus and he is in heaven.  But when we call on the name of Jesus he is here NOW with us.  When we call on his name and cast a demon out, it leaves because the victor has just entered the playing field. It leaves because Jesus is standing in front of us before the enemy as the victory just as he stands in front of us before God as our redeemer.

Oh praise God.  I didn't fully understand that till I wrote it down here.  The name isn't some catechism to call, it is Jesus himself we are calling to be with us and fight with us.  We go into battle side by side every single time against the enemy with the one being in all the universe who Can Not Lose!

Lord, thank you for being the ever present victor and here with us at the calling of your name.  Give us the grace, grow more in us the desire not to do your works, but to be in your presence.

Where two or more are gathered in my name, so there will I be!